For that we should be infinitely grateful. If they became more human they would likely start to feel guilty about all that sex.Paralith wrote:Bonobos are remarkable animals, no doubt, but so are many other animals, and even given how remarkable they are, they cannot simply be taught how to be human.
Eclogite wrote:For that we should be infinitely grateful. If they became more human they would likely start to feel guilty about all that sex.Paralith wrote:Bonobos are remarkable animals, no doubt, but so are many other animals, and even given how remarkable they are, they cannot simply be taught how to be human.
In any case, of course bonobos are animals -- so are humans. HPH
I'd be interested to see what anyone else makes of this
http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_savage_r ... write.html
Perhaps I should have rephrased my original question...
... "Are bonobos sentient?"
Or "Should we treat bonobos at the same level as...?"
Or maybe "At what point ... concede that such behaviour is essentially human?"
I just think that when I see something like that movie, we are well into the area of moral dilemma with the way the species is treated.
Paralith wrote: Were there any traits in particular that you had in mind to compare between humans and extant non-human apes?
I think that GTTD was really trying to ask not the question "Are Bonobos Animals?" but rather
"ARE BONOBOS PEOPLE?"
Maybe the idea of people will eventually become more inclusive---won't be limited to a single species.
goingtothedogs wrote:As an aside to the above: there is well established data showing that many murderers, child abusers, and psycopaths, although they may end up in prison because of assault on humans, actually have a historical record of abuse of and cruelty to animals. This is taken seriously enough that in the UK the RSPCA (Royal society for the Protection of Animals) and the RSPCC (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) have a department devoted to pooling their resources and thus helping each to "predict" where individuals who are likely to abuse in the future.
That being said, though the data is largely anecdotal, it seems pretty clear that many members of living ape species are capable of empathizing, at least to a certain degree, with other animals that are distinctly different from themselves. Off the top of my head I can think of at least six examples of apes treating other non-primate species with apparent kindness and concern. Mostly dogs and cats, but one case involving a bird.
Paralith wrote:Marshall, I've attached to this post an excellent review article written by some of the top chimpanzee cognition specialists in the field right now. It reviews the evidence for whether or not chimpanzees have a "theory of mind," that is, do they understand that the knowledge and beliefs of other individuals is different from their own knowledge and beliefs?...
I wouldn't, but then I don't feel guilty about sex either. However, I generally find myself in a minority. Perhaps it's because I'm British. (We have to keep a stiff upper lip about a stiff lower member.)Paralith wrote:Bonobo sex in the context of social bonding is extremely short, and more equivalent to a handshake or a hug in human terms. Why should you feel guilty about handshakes and hugs?
Marshall wrote:Paralith wrote:
Well it occurs to me that the MIRROR TEST is a test of something that might CORRELATE with empathy.
To recognize one's self in a mirror might take some of the same brain connections as being able to see one's self in some other creature, or to sense how the other might be feeling.
There may be measurable behaviors that one could classify as proto-empathy. Behaviors that might not even be associated with emotion, but are things like showing awareness of what the other animal is seeing, what the world looks like to them. Maybe behavior that show ability to predict the other animal's actions, or to consider things from the other's point of view.
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