Colorado Movie Theater Shooting: 71 Victims

[weakmagneto]

By CLAYTON SANDELL, KEVIN DOLAK, and COLLEEN CURRY
Good Morning America
July 20, 2012

Twelve people were killed and 59 were injured in Aurora, Colo., during a sold-out midnight premier of the new Batman movie "The Dark Knight Rises" when 24-year-old James Holmes unloaded four weapons' full of ammunition into the unsuspecting crowd.

The number of casualties makes the incident the largest mass shooting in U.S. history.

Holmes, a graduate student at a nearby college with a clean arrest record, entered the movie auditorium wearing a ballistics helmet, bullet-proof vest, bullet-proof leggings, gas mask and gloves. He detonated multiple smoke bombs, and then began firing at viewers in the sold-out auditorium, police said today.

Bullets from the spree tore through the theater and into adjoining theaters, where at least one other person was struck and injured. Ten members of "The Dark Knight Rises" audience were killed in theater, while two others died later at area hospitals. Numerous patrons were in critical condition at six local hospitals, the Aurora police said this afternoon.

Authorities began removing bodies this afternoon, according to affiliate ABC7 Eyewitness News.

Holmes was apprehended within minutes of the 12:39 a.m. shooting at his car behind the theater, where police found him in full riot gear and carrying three weapons, including a AR-15 assault rifle, which can hold upwards of 100 rounds, a Remington 12 gauge shot gun, and a .40 Glock handgun. A fourth handgun was found in the vehicle. Agents from the federal bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are tracing the weapons.

According to police sources, Holmes told the officers arresting him that he was "The Joker," referring to the villain in the second installment of the Batman movie trilogy, "The Dark Knight." He also warned police that he had booby-trapped his apartment, leading officers to evacuate the Aurora apartment building.

Police Chief Dan Oates said today that police and bomb squads have found a large number of explosive devices and trip wires at Holmes' apartment and have not yet decided how to proceed without setting off explosions.

One Victim Had Narrowly Escaped Toronto Shooting

http://gma.yahoo.com/colorado-batman-mo ... ories.html

Woman who died in Colo. movie rampage narrowly escaped being shot last month in Toronto Eaton Centre shooting
By Miranda Leitsinger and Elizabeth Chuck, NBC News
July 20, 2012

A woman who died in the movie theater shooting in Denver escaped a shooting at a mall in Toronto last month, saying an “odd feeling” compelled her to leave the shopping center.

Jessica Ghawi, 24, had recently moved from San Antonio to Denver, kens5.com reported. An aspiring sportscaster, she had gone to see the movie “Batman: The Dark Knight Rises,” with a friend from Texas who was injured in the shooting, the television station reported.

Ghawi, who wrote under the name Jessica Redfield, said on her blog that she was visiting Toronto in June and stopped by a popular shopping mall to get something to eat when she got an “odd feeling” in her chest.

“This empty, almost sickening feeling won’t go away. I noticed this feeling when I was in the Eaton Center in Toronto just seconds before someone opened fire in the food court,” she wrote in her blog. “An odd feeling which led me to go outside and unknowingly out of harm‘s way. It’s hard for me to wrap my mind around how a weird feeling saved me from being in the middle of a deadly shooting.”

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... month?lite

[Dave_Oblad]

OMG.. My heart goes out to all those involved.. except that Idiot! All the loved ones of those killed and injured should have a chance to have a little one-on-one with that guy.

This was planned and thus he was rational. I'm too nice a guy to describe what I think they should do to him.

Bummed..
Dave :^)

[wolfhnd]

How many of these people that want to do this sort of thing are out there?

Lacking any kind of rational explanation or motivation behind this behavior insanity is a forgone conclusion which makes you wonder if insanity should really be a defense against punishment. In any case killing him would most likely be doing him a favor as miserable is an adjective to describe the people that do these things.

Some people will say that it is a sign of social ills but this is not something new. Homicidal rampages have always been a part of the human condition. What is different is that the individuals that commit these crimes today are not really suffering from the same kind of environmental hardships that drove people insane enough to do these things in the past. Relatively speaking most of these criminals have every prospect of living comfortable lives. My conclusion is that the diversity of environments that produce mass murders points to a common mental defect independent of environmental factors. If the defect is genetic then psychopaths are most likely as common as other genetic diseases. You have to assume that the same defect does not always result in mass murder and that the perpetrator of mass murder are most likely failed psychopaths. Successful psychopaths run cooperations, practice law, run for public office and generally climb the social ladder on the "bodies" of those they leave behind. I would propose that the defect is not so much an inability to empathize with others but more likely an inability to enjoy the rewards that "normal" successful psychopath garner from their indifference to the rules or interaction that most people adhere to. Do individuals like Ted Bundy actual "enjoy" their crimes or are they acts of frustration over their lack of empathy? The pleasure that one psychopath may experience from manipulation and subsequent "success" may simply be insufficient to gratify the needs of the failed psychopath who turns to self destructive behavior. Mass murder in these individuals becomes something metaphorically equivalent to banging their heads on a wall. As with most things it may be more a matter of degree than kind. In fact the distinction between sociopath and psycopath may be degree of the expression of similar traits. Those sociopaths or psychopaths that become violent may lack empathy and the emotional gratification that comes with it to the extent that only the most aberrant of behavior stimulates any instinctual response at all. They are not animals responding to murderous instincts but rather animals without "normal" instincts. Self preservation and acting in your own interest is not after all a particularily defective instinct. If we want to find these people before they act out we need to look for individual that not only lack empathy with other people but also lack the ability to find pleasure in selfish pursuits. In other words the failed, frustrated and miserable psychopath.

[Watson]

There was a time when the talk shows commonly asked the question "Does violance on tv make people act out more violently", and at the time there was no clear evidence this was the case so it was a question that stirred up controvercy, with strong opinions on both sides.

Is the increased violance in movies and video games being played out at the next level?

Level 11, the streets and public places, in real time, real life and with very little thought of consequences or others. Adrenolin and purpose suppress common sense. Now we have high speed driving in cars and on motorbike, shown on utube. And how many well armed players in body armour, are playing their parts on the evening news. This latest story only set the bar higher for the next player wanting to bet top score of dead and wounded, with colateral bonus points for the booby-traps investigaters may or may not find.

So the question does not get asked on tv talk shows any more, because the question is not controversial. It's not even a question. It is a sad statement on the state our society. Violence in movies and video games does influence young minds, and does play out in the lives of innocent people.
Can we do anything? ...........The console has been activated............begin play..............

[moranity]

i just want to say i have played the most violent of video games and watched the most violent of films and do not feel inclined to carry out such behavours in the real world.so human + violent media != real world violence. other factors must be involved.
i'd say that violent play is a natural part of human life, as a youngster playing in the woods we only played war. we watched war films, we watched cowboy films etc. one difference may be that heros were heros, they suffered and sacrificed themselves to protect the weak. now it's just fame and money, there are no heros portrayed in the media.
just to add, how sad for us all, but especially those closer to this tragedy.
also this guy probably just wanted fame and abit more control, nothing more evil than that.

[wolfhnd]

One thing we forget when we think about these types of event is the relationship between population and frequency or the rate per capita. There isn't much evidence to suggest that it is increasing at a rate higher than the population growth. Many of the incidents in the past may just not be recorded which also distorts are view. Even if it were increasing at rate higher than population growth it could just be a case of increasing opportunity and means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

[mtbturtle]

Why can we buy tear gas canisters? on the internet!?!?

Given that we will not be able to prevent all or perhaps any of these incidents, can't we decrease the number of deaths and injuries by restricting things like the number of bullets a clip can have?

[Watson]

To say someone or many people play the video game and don't go nuts, is non-evidence that they are safe or they are not the cause at some level. The increasing number of ocurrances is also not evidence, but an indicator that there is some link. Also the fact the guy dressed as, and claimed to be the joker, a charactor in the film. Come on? And the film had no influence on this guys motivations? Sure other things in his life played a role as well, but no denying a connection here. And he is not the first to dress the part.

wolfhnd, I agree stats play a part, (scary as the list is) but this type of killing is unique in the motivation, tigger, preparation, and even the killer doesn't fit a killer profile. This is methodically planned, with clear evidence to the plot and character in the movie.

I expect the defence, as there is none at this point, will become some undue mental influence by social norms, at the extreme edge of excessive violence that the pour defendant could not avoid, and thus got drawn into, causing a temporary mental defect.

Hi mtb, that would only make to much sense, and in the land of the super-size, more is better according to those with special interests. How many people have a legitimate reason to buy tear gas? That should be a clue right there.

[mtbturtle]

The increasing number of ocurrances is also not evidence, but an indicator that there is some link.

What evidence is there of an "increasing number" of such incidents? We drink more milk now also is that an indicator of some link?

Watson, I still have not been able to think of any reason for anybody to buy tear gas canisters. I can't think of a single legitimate use for it. Hopefully, the more informed or creative types could figure out some reason, use.

[Sisyphus]

Is the increased violance in movies and video games being played out at the next level?

No, that's ridiculous. Millions upon millions of people watch violent movies and play violent video games. If what you suggest is true, then it would be the end of the world as we know it. Not to mention that violence existed long before video games and movies existed. When you blame other things like video games and movies, you take blame away from the actual killer. You're giving him an excuse. That's a bad thing. And, if you can't comprehend that, maybe this video will help...

[Watson]

Yes lots of people watch and are not influenced, but some are. This guy watched the movies, dressed in character and took a que, to commit the crime from the opening night screening.

http://brainz.org/15-films-inspired-real-life-crimes/

[wolfhnd]

They blamed demon rum in the past, and yes just like violence in movies and games there may be a link between drug abuse and violence. What we will never know is what would have happened had the perpetrator not been exposed to violent media.

Crime tends to cycle according to the percentage of young people late teen to early thirties. That is just one factor of hundreds that has to be considered if you want to establish a correlation between media and violence. When they studied pornography in depth no correlation could be established between it and sexual crimes. I suspect there is one but it must be fairly insignificant. I think the best argument is that however small the correlation may be wouldn't it be better in general to have higher quality entertainment. Just like the argument against fossil fuels which goes like this > even if you don't believe in global warming would it not be nice to do away with the pollution and the trade deficit. The problem is how do you sell it to the public. I would be content with good documentaries for my entertainment but who knows maybe some people would become violent if they didn't get their fix of violent media ;-0

Just like prohibition I'm afraid that outlawing any thing can have seriously negative and unforeseen consequences, so I'm not in favor of any prohibition or limit on free speech concerning violent media. Campaigns that focus on parents and efforts to make kids think it is cool to watch something other than violent movies or play violent games is in my opinion about as good as your going to do.

[Watson]

I'm not tring to change the world, or ban what's out there. I'm just thinking we should acknowledge a link, in this case between the premiere of this movie, and events that followed. In the future parents, teachers and friends may realize it could happen, and identify telling behavior and interviene. But to denie the obvious takes that awareness away from everyone.

To have the option open, and out there and allow for discussions about the kid, buying tears gas, and discussing neat guns and multiple rounds and types of great guns, would build on an awareness. But to instead to get on the big tabaco's empty band wagon, and start spinning the denial propaganda is not helping. Ackowledge the situation is there, and be aware of it. Watch for the next kid playing out his fasntasy.

The fact that this happened at the screening of the movie only makes it seem like this is an isolated incident related to a move, but Columbine was also related to a movie, the Matrix, although that point would be easily overlooked.

[mtbturtle]

The increasing number of ocurrances is also not evidence, but an indicator that there is some link.

What evidence is there of an "increasing number" of such incidents? We drink more milk now also is that an indicator of some link?

[Watson]

When Donahue first asked the question 40 years ago, he was asking about tv and movie violence, and there was no real evidence at the time. Now, increasing from then, the numbers are increasing, and it seems to me there is a third example of murder by movie, but I can't think of it at this moment, but we can just wait for the next one.

[mtbturtle]

Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer
By DAVE CULLEN
Published: July 21, 2012
New York Times

YOU’VE had 48 hours to reflect on the ghastly shooting in Colorado at a movie theater. You’ve been bombarded with “facts” and opinions about James Holmes’s motives. You have probably expressed your opinion on why he did it. You are probably wrong.

I learned that the hard way. In 1999 I lived in Denver and was part of the first wave of reporters to descend on Columbine High School the afternoon it was attacked. I ran with the journalistic pack that created the myths we are still living with. We created those myths for one reason: we were trying to answer the burning question of why, and we were trying to answer it way too soon. I spent 10 years studying Columbine, and we all know what happened there, right? Two outcast loners exacted revenge against the jocks for relentlessly bullying them.

Not one bit of that turned out to be true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/opinion/sunday/the-unknown-why-in-the-aurora-killings.html

[wolfhnd]

Nice article MTB.

I think a good example how distorted our view of mass murders can be is the traditional views on Adolf Hitler. We often hear the idea that Hitler is the embodiment of evil. That is really a useless explanation for his actions. There is no meaningful definition of evil, only vague allegorical and mythological definitions.

When you consider Hitlers life some interesting things emerge. He had failed at art, but art is not something that you associate with someone that is emotional detached or lacking in sensitivity. He spent his time in prison writing a book to express his enter most feelings and thoughts. These are not examples of someone that is trying to avoid normal human emotions but of someone who is trying to experience an emotional life by reaching out to others. It is also worthy of note that depressive episodes seem to be a hazard of the artistic life.

The roots of WWII are general acknowledge to be in the events that unfolded during and after WWI. I believe that the "evil" cloud of hatred and revenge inside the mind of Hitler was condensed to a large degree from his experiences in the first world war. We have learned a lot about Posttraumatic Stress since that time and it is safe to say that anyone with Hitler's war experience will be suffering to one degree or the other from PTSD symptoms. The kinds of experiences that produce PTSD not only desensitize the individual to the suffering of the "enemy" but they also distort the individuals ability to identify the enemy and desensitize the individual to the suffering of "friends". For example I had a friend who on his return from Vietnam had a repeating nightmare in which his grandmother became the enemy. Hitlers identification of the Jews and certain easter Europeans as the enemy is not particularly novel and is a part of most Western European history and largely speaks of an inability to identify the enemy.

I won't go back over what I covered in my earlier post accept to say that the instinct for self preservation is both complex and detached from rationality to varying degrees and may or may not enhance effective behavior. In my earlier post I focused on sociopathic and psychopathic behavior to illustrate the effects of detachment from not the lack of instinctual predispositions. It is important to remember that psychological terminology describes behavior not the disease itself in very much the same way as our concept of evil.

[Watson]

The report I heard was the killer had his first day in court, and sat there, basically in a stunned condition. That must be the monster of all hang-overs to wake up to.

[kyew]

Why can we buy tear gas canisters? on the internet!?!?

Given that we will not be able to prevent all or perhaps any of these incidents, can't we decrease the number of deaths and injuries by restricting things like the number of bullets a clip can have?

My guess as to the allowed sale of tear gas is the simple reason that it is not lethal in and of itself.

As to restricting the sale of high capacity magazines, I have only this to say: I'm an advocate for Second Amendment rights. I spend a bit of time every day on websites pursuing that interest. I'm also a gunsmith. I can tell you with all honesty and more than a bit of experience, that the high capacity magazine this guy was using probably saved some lives. They're notorious for jamming weapons, which happened to the Armalite Rifle the shooter was using. Even if it hadn't happened, it takes less than three seconds for a trained and practiced shooter to change magazines. High capacity magazines are not the problem. The problem is the person pulling the trigger. It always has been, and it always will be the problem.

[kyew]

I'm not tring to change the world, or ban what's out there. I'm just thinking we should acknowledge a link, in this case between the premiere of this movie, and events that followed. In the future parents, teachers and friends may realize it could happen, and identify telling behavior and interviene. But to denie the obvious takes that awareness away from everyone.

To have the option open, and out there and allow for discussions about the kid, buying tears gas, and discussing neat guns and multiple rounds and types of great guns, would build on an awareness. But to instead to get on the big tabaco's empty band wagon, and start spinning the denial propaganda is not helping. Ackowledge the situation is there, and be aware of it. Watch for the next kid playing out his fasntasy.

The fact that this happened at the screening of the movie only makes it seem like this is an isolated incident related to a move, but Columbine was also related to a movie, the Matrix, although that point would be easily overlooked.

To echo mtbturtle, where is the evidence of a link? In another comment, I think you (or someone else) stated that the link was obvious. I'm completely failing to see any link whatsoever. Gaming, if anything, is an outlet for violent tendencies. Talking about guns and assault tactics doesn't lead to acts of violence. Watching violent movies doesn't lead to acts of violence. If these things did indeed lead to mass shootings, we'd have them happening once a month.

[Watson]

Glad the NRA spinners are out and about earning their keep. You join, make 2 posts and we never hear from you again.

[Watson]

I'm not tring to change the world, or ban what's out there. I'm just thinking we should acknowledge a link, in this case between the premiere of this movie, and events that followed. In the future parents, teachers and friends may realize it could happen, and identify telling behavior and interviene. But to denie the obvious takes that awareness away from everyone.

To have the option open, and out there and allow for discussions about the kid, buying tears gas, and discussing neat guns and multiple rounds and types of great guns, would build on an awareness. But to instead to get on the big tabaco's empty band wagon, and start spinning the denial propaganda is not helping. Ackowledge the situation is there, and be aware of it. Watch for the next kid playing out his fasntasy.

The fact that this happened at the screening of the movie only makes it seem like this is an isolated incident related to a move, but Columbine was also related to a movie, the Matrix, although that point would be easily overlooked.

To echo mtbturtle, where is the evidence of a link? In another comment, I think you (or someone else) stated that the link was obvious. I'm completely failing to see any link whatsoever.

Your failing to see, is by choice. I agree, you are completely failing. Stick around, become a member, then we can discuss the gun politics. But to post and run is BS.

[wolfhnd]

I believe that the purpose of the second amendment is in fact to allow militias, so restrictions on weapons is a bit of a contradiction. The supreme court must disagree :-)

Maybe armed rebellion is not something we need to consider at the moment but if and when it is necessary it will be too late to restore the right to bear arms. In the United States as in other countries the military is likely to be divided in the case of an insurrection and armed private citizen could tip the balance one way or the other. The question is do we trust the citizens and I'm afraid I do not. I know very few people who have any business owning assault riffles etc. The only way to really make it work is to have true militias in every neighborhood and let them police their members somehow. Making belonging to a militia a requirement for owning weapons other than hunting, recreational purposes has it's own issues of course. I considered a requirement that all military grade weapons be stored at a central location but that defeats the purpose as it would be too easy for the government to control them in the event of a revolution. I see no reason why we should assume that we will not some day be faced with the need to over through a corrupt government just like what is happening in Syria right now. I see it as a question of having the courage to be prepared for armed revolution and to accept the deadly accidents of mass murderers being born and living amongst us. Do I own a military grade weapon you ask? I'm afraid that I'm more afraid of the gun than the government at the moment :-) So my position is a bit hypocritical but it is all about the time and the place and I doubt that I will live to see the time that I feel obligated to over through my government violently but you never know.

[Watson]

I see it as a question of having the courage to be prepared for armed revolution and to accept the deadly accidents of mass murderers being born and living amongst us.

So the many victims of gun crime and the hands of anyone, as individuals or as group, are really victims of the acceptable risk? The assumption being that the US government may one day have to be and/or, need to be challenged by force? That day is here, still, depending on who you ask. Good thing the militias are small.

[wolfhnd]

So the many victims of gun crime and the hands of anyone, as individuals or as group, are really victims of the acceptable risk? The assumption being that the US government may one day have to be and/or, need to be challenged by force? That day is here, still, depending on who you ask. Good thing the militias are small.

That is the way I see it, as I pointed out it's something of a hypocritical position as I don't own a weapon, but I can imagine the day when the government may need to be challenged by force. I'm actually very conservative when it comes to issues like this. For example I'm sure I would not have been in favor of a revolution against Great Britain over taxes. I'm of the opinion that the leaders of the American Revolution were at least partially motivated by thawed ambitions and a feeling of being made second class "aristocrats". If we had gone the route that Canada and Australia had gone perhaps an early entry into World War I would have saved the world from the worst of that war and prevented World War II. Slavery may have ended in 1832 peacefully if the US had maintained it's close ties to Britain. Revolution is never something that should be taken lightly and is probably only appropriate in the worst cases of human rights abuses. On the other hand we are talking about the constitution and the framers there of came from a time when war was considered just a part of life. I think it is clear that at least some of the founders felt a standing army was too likely to become a tool of despotism and preferred militias to counter the threat of too much power in too few hands. If you believe that there is no longer a need for militias then the proper course is a constitutional amendment and not a supreme court that ignores the intent of the second amendment.

[Watson]

That is the way I see it, as I pointed out it's something of a hypocritical position as I don't own a weapon, but I can imagine the day when the government may need to be challenged by force. I'm actually very conservative when it comes to issues like this. For example I'm sure I would not have been in favor of a revolution against Great Britain over taxes.

To govern or to be governed under then possibility of armed reactions to hard decisions made on behalf of the country, would make it hard to make those decisions. Seems like a bit of systemic paranoia under lying the counties persona, and trust issues, maybe.

I don't think Canadians generally feel we will ever have need to take arms and rise up against the government. Even with the quebec issue, would be handled with our militia of lawyers. Or the west may seperate over control of resourses, with the help of their own militia.

I think it is clear that at least some of the founders felt a standing army was too likely to become a tool of despotism and preferred militias to counter the threat of too much power in too few hands.

This may be true enough, and doesn't stop there. Isn't the power to govern the US divided up between Congrees and Senate to the point that not much gets done, without the watering down of the original intentions. Even if the governmrnt of the day controls both, things get watered down by regional interests? Just my evening news, opinion?

It seems to me the US is so committed to the words of the document, and historical intentions, that the nations psyche is stuck in the past. I really hope the need of a militia is never realized, for real, or in the minds of the loonitic fringe.

[kyew]

Glad the NRA spinners are out and about earning their keep. You join, make 2 posts and we never hear from you again.

First, I never said I was a member of the NRA. Fact is, I detest the NRA for the same reason that I find your accusation of me being an "NRA spinner" offensive - I don't do politics.

Second, as I stated in my other comment, I have many other fora of which I spend time on. This means I don't spend my time on just this forum. To expect someone else to waste as much time as you yourself waste on one website is a bit narcissistic, in my opinion.

I would also appreciate being accorded the same respect I've shown you. If that isn't possible for you, please refrain from responding to my posts. If you're able to be civil, I look forward to intelligent and lively debate, not ad hominem attacks.

Thank you.

[kyew]

I'm not tring to change the world, or ban what's out there. I'm just thinking we should acknowledge a link, in this case between the premiere of this movie, and events that followed. In the future parents, teachers and friends may realize it could happen, and identify telling behavior and interviene. But to denie the obvious takes that awareness away from everyone.

To have the option open, and out there and allow for discussions about the kid, buying tears gas, and discussing neat guns and multiple rounds and types of great guns, would build on an awareness. But to instead to get on the big tabaco's empty band wagon, and start spinning the denial propaganda is not helping. Ackowledge the situation is there, and be aware of it. Watch for the next kid playing out his fasntasy.

The fact that this happened at the screening of the movie only makes it seem like this is an isolated incident related to a move, but Columbine was also related to a movie, the Matrix, although that point would be easily overlooked.

To echo mtbturtle, where is the evidence of a link? In another comment, I think you (or someone else) stated that the link was obvious. I'm completely failing to see any link whatsoever.

Your failing to see, is by choice. I agree, you are completely failing. Stick around, become a member, then we can discuss the gun politics. But to post and run is BS.

Once again you attack me personally. Is this all you have to contribute?

[kyew]

I believe that the purpose of the second amendment is in fact to allow militias, so restrictions on weapons is a bit of a contradiction. The supreme court must disagree :-)

Maybe armed rebellion is not something we need to consider at the moment but if and when it is necessary it will be too late to restore the right to bear arms. In the United States as in other countries the military is likely to be divided in the case of an insurrection and armed private citizen could tip the balance one way or the other. The question is do we trust the citizens and I'm afraid I do not. I know very few people who have any business owning assault riffles etc. The only way to really make it work is to have true militias in every neighborhood and let them police their members somehow. Making belonging to a militia a requirement for owning weapons other than hunting, recreational purposes has it's own issues of course. I considered a requirement that all military grade weapons be stored at a central location but that defeats the purpose as it would be too easy for the government to control them in the event of a revolution. I see no reason why we should assume that we will not some day be faced with the need to over through a corrupt government just like what is happening in Syria right now. I see it as a question of having the courage to be prepared for armed revolution and to accept the deadly accidents of mass murderers being born and living amongst us. Do I own a military grade weapon you ask? I'm afraid that I'm more afraid of the gun than the government at the moment :-) So my position is a bit hypocritical but it is all about the time and the place and I doubt that I will live to see the time that I feel obligated to over through my government violently but you never know.

I agree with you for the most part. It's a very gray area to walk in. What weapons should be accessible to civilians/militias? What sort of regulations should be applied to maximize safety of innocent bystanders? How should militias be treated - as paramilitary or "paracivilian"? These questions need answers to them, and perhaps that is what the dialogue needs to be about between the pro- and anti-gun positions. But to blanket ban firearms would be disastrous to the freedom we enjoy as Americans.

Thank you for the civil and intelligent response.

[Watson]

Hi knew, If I'm wrong about your intentions I apoligize, but it would not be the first case of someone logging onto a site with the sole purpose of pushing a personal adgenda, or to derail someone elses. Glad you came back to set the record straight.

I am here at this forum for the (quality of the) science. Althou, I do wonder off into other news, and other topics on occassion. I don't know that narrsasistic applies here, but perhaps I misunderstood your intention of it.

What sort of regulations should be applied to maximize safety of innocent bystanders?

Well, the above has already stated, the practical goal is acceptable risk to the public. The notion of "maximum safety of innocent by standers??" Less guns???..=..more safe public, I think.

Other countries do ok with less guns, and so I think "disasterous to the freedom" is more than a bit of an over reaction. A difficult transition, yes. Better country for it? Probably. Going to happen? not in the life time of this planet.
And kyew, Welcome.