Warp Drives? Possible or not?

[planethopper]

I've seen many articles and even patent attempts for warp drives. Most seem to require machines or substances not currently practical or even possible to produce such as extreme super magents, fictional materials, etc. Has anyone else here seen any articles on these? Does anyone here believe a means of intersteller travel may be possible?

[jc__denton]

Surprise surprise. NASA is actively pursuing these ideas through their NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/resea ... pstat.html and links therein.

Don't get your hopes too high though, their current progress is "Speculations" and they have yet to find a way around special relativity, but hey, at least they're serious.
I guess.

-jc

[planethopper]

if only I had a good supply of dilithium crystals... j/k :D

[Ant-Janos]

i always wanted to invent a hyperdrive :) ....

[Heresy]

Nasa also had a theoretical ship that could not travel faster than light, but could reach speeds close to it.

[Gavilan]

Until God changes the relationship of mass and velocity to energy it will require about 39,000 megawatts of continous power to accelerate 1000KG to 1/4 the speed of light in one year.

We may dream of colonizing the moon and planets, but the realities of physiology and physics dictate that there is but one Gaia, one home, one chance.

[Heron]

Actually a warp drive would essentially bend space time in a wave and you would ride that wave as the leading edge contracts space, so your not really traveling faster or at light speed at all, just changing displacement.
see....... Alcubierre metric.

[Washu_chan]

If warp drive is possible then our prospects for exploring and colonizing space go way up.
Also on non warp interstellar travel we do have one technology that can reach 10% light speed the orion or nuclear pulsed propulsion spacecraft using existing nuclear weapons technology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Or ... propulsion)
But if warp drive if possible it means the stars can be reached with something that is not the size of a small city and in less time then a century.

[Temporocitor]

The term "Warp Drive" has more than one definition. If we look at NASA's BPP (the link in the sceond post) exploring the RFP will find a section asking "What level does your project relate to?" They mean whether it is old science rehashed, new science, emerging science, prototypes, etc. and that last area is the toughest to get funded. NASA is going about it backwards. They need to pump money into reasonably well organized "experiments." We can do thought experimnets all day long, but if soemone has an idea for a drive that

1. interrupts the flow of gravity (Electrogravitics) or

2. Displaces a mass from the present into a future space or space gone by. (Time Warp Drive)

, as long as it isn't someothing known that could sya implode and counterreact to the implosion, then they should be funded.

I've been working on area 1 for over 40 years now and have only recently performed a very simple and cheap experiment that pointed more toward area 2. That, of course, is not surprising since the last 15 years of my theoretical research has been pointing to that and the last 10 especially, have pointed to the grand old subject of pushing gravity being more aligned with Occam's Razor.


Imagine, if you can or will, that existence is not confined toi a single "big bang," but to millions of sequences of expansion/collapse in each of our seconds. Our optical systems, as humans, can only process roughly 100 frames per second. This means there is quite a bit residing within the interstices. Still, that isn't really the point.

The concept is that if there is only a single bang, it would not only expand, as is known, within 10 ^-43 seconds and shortly after, between that fraction and 1/10th of a second, or even say Planck time, the collapse phase would involve solidification, thus life would not be animate. Entropy would occur at the outermost fringes, like ice melting.

Part of my unbeknown problem in submitting a proposal to NASA was attempting to "get around relativity" in a system that envisions it as universal. We are beginniing to see experimental validation of Vaccuum fluctuation, tachyons and next, perhaps, proving the existence of dark matter/energy. If we can tap this ebergy, we could use it inexhaustibly. Dilitium crystals may seem as much scifi over the dam as the nuclear engine in "Destination Moon."

What have I noticed in my own research? Chaos can be rectified with MODERATELY strong magnetic fields. An observation is that about 10 years prior to Eric Cornell's team manifestation of the Bose Einstein Condensate, that requiring a motion factor, that Spielberg envisioned "88 MPH, Marty!!" along with the cie on the Delorian during reentry.

Just soem thoughts to chew on when wondering about wapr drives "When?"


Tempo

[Percarus]

Relativity tells us in no uncertain terms that faster than light speed is impossible, period. This is not because of any technical restrictions (as if that wasn't enough!) but simply because it is a fundamental part of the way spacetime is constructed. Relativity tells us that as an object increases in speed, so it increases in mass. This mass increase is not detectable to anyone travelling with the object, only to observers in the frame of reference where they see the object to be moving. For them, the measured mass of the moving object increases in accordance with the equations of relativistic mechanics until, if the object could reach light speed it would have infinite mass.

The fastest known moving particle in the universe is the photon, the particle of light, as it has zero mass. By that logic I would argue that faster-than light travel is impossible, however, there are some speculative models in which Neutrinos have a tachyonic nature and travel faster than light. ‘MINOS’ detectors showed that neutrinos may exhibit higher than the speed of light velocities and is consistent with superluminal velocity; however, the uncertainty is great enough that the result also does not rule out speeds less than or equal to light at this high confidence level. Quoting Wikipedia, “The results showed the same faster-than-light speed. However, in February 2012 reports came out that the results may have been caused by a loose fiber optic cable attached to one of the atomic clocks which measured the departure and arrival times of the neutrinos. – In June 2012 an announcement was made that new scientific evidence occurred that refute the concept that neutrinos can travel at faster than speed of light.”.

So in building an argument for faster than light travel it would first be imperative to attest and confirm incidents in which faster than light travel occurs. One such example is our universe; the expansion of the universe causes distant galaxies to recede from us faster than the speed of light, if co-moving distance and cosmological time are used to calculate the speeds of these galaxies. If warp speed could be related to ‘quantum tunneling’ (something I know little about) then Raymond Y. Chiao’s credence (he was first to measure the quantum tunnelling time, which was found to be between 1.5 to 1.7 times the speed of light) could pave way for faster than light travel. This paves way for theoretical thinking into a ‘Alcubierre’ drive in which a spaceship would be hence entrapped in a ‘warp bubble’ where the space at the back and the front is rapidly expanding – the energy necessities for such a feat would be tremendous if it were indeed possible.

Concepts of warp propulsion is non-Newtonian, meaning that it necessitates constant power input to maintain a constant speed. A decade ago I read about theoretical methods to instil propulsion to faster than light speeds by detonating nuclear charges at regular intervals every several years behind a star ship in such a manner that the energy could be contained in some shield that would propel the starship forwards. This still means that many decades would be necessary to build up to such speeds but I see it as novel concept.

Of further mention is the concept of traversable wormholes – apparently theory of relativity predicts that if they do exist then time-travel may also be a possibility. The mathematics of this are beyond me, but the notion of faster than light travel is one novel concept I try to keep my faith affirmed to.

[Temporocitor]

The fastest known moving particle in the universe is the photon, the particle of light, as it has zero mass

This is the problem. Relativistic gravity, as a definition, fails because mass is required to warp time-space. To generate any significant mass, gravity is required as a force to allow accretion. Without that accretion there is no mass to warp time-space. We might as well call at least that aspect of relativity a cause lost within the chicken-or-the-egg-syndrome.

On the other hand, if there is a finer mesh particle that defines time at one velocity, too close to infinity to be detected by our current means, yet, when recursively returning to its origin, it morphs into a gravitational particle, then eventually more retarded, it becomes mass, the process not only works, but defines the nature of the tachyon. This does not preclude relativity, it only modifies it to a practical design.

[Gregorygregg1]

I actually have a hyperdrive on my Toyota. The model was only produced for a few months back in 1998, then discontinued because of a problem with temporal displacement. You kept getting back before you left. It put you in a loop so eventually you got back before you even thought about going. I think the Japanese are still working on the problem.

[Temporocitor]

ROFLMFAO

[Dave_Oblad]

Just a quick drive by..

I think the solution for high velocity low power drives will lay with the Casimir effect. If one takes an extremely flat plate and projects a beam (perhaps photons) across it's surface that just grazes but doesn't touch the plate, that one might produce the Casimir Effect causing Quantum pressure on one side of the plate to be greater than the side with the photon field. The force is applied to the plate in the direction of the photon field (beam). Amplify this by many plates and you might have a source of propulsion that far exceeds the energy required to sustain the photon field.

It's a bit like putting a carrot in front of the horse. That the plate attempts to move towards the field but mechanical attachments always keeps the field just ahead of the plate. Because the photon field is massless then it's NOT like getting in a box and expecting it to move by pushing against it's inside. Still won't go faster than light but may be a cheap way to get near that speed without so much mass required as energy.

Just a random thought from your local idiot.. lol.
Dave :^)

[Temporocitor]

Just a quick drive by..

I think the solution for high velocity low power drives will lay with the Casimir effect. If one takes an extremely flat plate and projects a beam (perhaps photons) across it's surface that just grazes but doesn't touch the plate, that one might produce the Casimir Effect causing Quantum pressure on one side of the plate to be greater than the side with the photon field. The force is applied to the plate in the direction of the photon field (beam). Amplify this by many plates and you might have a source of propulsion that far exceeds the energy required to sustain the photon field.

It's a bit like putting a carrot in front of the horse. That the plate attempts to move towards the field but mechanical attachments always keeps the field just ahead of the plate. Because the photon field is massless then it's NOT like getting in a box and expecting it to move by pushing against it's inside. Still won't go faster than light but may be a cheap way to get near that speed without so much mass required as energy.

Just a random thought from your local idiot.. lol.
Dave :^)

Sounds a bit like "ye olde legendary Otis Carr device." What if we hybridized your concept with "ye olde Electron Spiral Toroid propulsion." Some years back NIAAC funded some research for the EST, but we never heard much after 2000 about it. I assume it ultimately failed, so was discarded. About that same time I was turned down for having "ye olde U.P.S.I.D.A.I.S.I.U.M. project" funded, but with an acronym like that, I can imagine why. In reviewing my concept years later, I've changed everything about it, but at that time in 1999 there was less known, so it wouldn't have been a bad investment for them and I think a lot would have been learned.

Need Another Seven Astronauts...

[Dave_Oblad]

Hey Temporocitor,

Me thinks you might have something there. True.. it's a lot harder to make an electron beam than a photon beam, but.. as I undertand it.. the electron field around the atom is incased within a quantum field to incapsulate all that atomic energy. Thus it's likely the electron is the ideal field to simulate the presence of false matter. Should not be all that hard to make a cathode ray tube and focus a beam of electrons across the plate to create the quantum pressure differential needed to motivate the plate in moving.

A calculation seems to indicate about 20 lbs per square inch of pressure may be possible. For a square foot, that's 144 square inches or 2880 lbs of force per plate with the power drawn to be.. say.. 50 watts. That just a couple of 9 volt batteries. It would be very cool to fly from here to the Moon in a matter of minutes with just the power from a few small batteries. Thanks for the cool idea improvement.

Highest regards,
Dave :^)

[Temporocitor]

Run it up the flagpole and see if it'll wave! :D

[Dave_Oblad]

One other idea Temporocitor..

I'd like to make some U.P.S.I.D.A.I.S.I.U.M. It shouldn't be too hard. I'd start with aluminum and melt it to a liquid in a vacuum. Then inject atomize gas into it. The gas immediately expands into large bubbles due to the heat and being in a vacuum. Sort of like aluminum Pumice. Then cool it quickly trapping the high density expanded gas bubbles. Result: lighter than air solid material. Bit like those aluminum helium balloons except no helium but something even lighter.. Vacuum. Reinforced walls because it's an aluminum lattice preventing bubble collapse.

Want to market this stuff with me?... :P

Yea.. this whole thread is getting off topic in regards to Warp Drives as intended so I'll have to give some thought to practical generation of space-time warping.

Best Regards,
Dave :^)

[Dave_Oblad]

Ok all..

After due consideration.. I have come to the conclusion that a practical warp-drive is possible. To build this.. one first needs to find a small astroid made from an exploded neutron star. I'm sure they don't grow on tree's but once you find one about 3 feet across, the gravitational field at it's surface may be several G's. You would have a very hard time jumping off it if you decided to stand on it. This material will definitely warp/curve space-time.

Next, imagine a Badminton Shuttlecock, where the hard core of such is the Neutron Astroid Mass. The structure of the shuttlecock, that is other than the core, is made of simple Iron with proportions about the same as the badminton shuttlecock. The Iron will push against the core and because it's imbalenced, the whole assembly will move on it's own accord with no power applied. Once one understands how gravity works.. that it is not a force of attraction but rather a force of matter migration towards curved space (the astroid) the iron will push the core. (it really will.. no BS).

Now.. attach a cable to the iron forming what might be described as a plumb-bob. At the far end of the cable is a cabin to live in and an exhaust rocket on a gimble. The Plumb-Bob drive pulls the cabin and you steer by swinging the cabin into the direction desired with the rocket gimble.. another rockit blast to still the swing once pointed in the right direction and off you go.. at several G's. This drive requires almost no energy beyond the steering rocket and exploits the warp of curved space-time for propulsion.

This will work. It still won't go faster than light but you wouldn't really want to. You're made of water and at near light speed.. the electrons holding water together will strip away and you become a gas. And all the kings horses and all the kings men, will never be able to assemble you again..lol.

So there you go.. a free energy, near light speed, warp drive. And this time.. I'm actually serious.

Best to all,
Dave :^)

[Temporocitor]

Well, Dave... U.P.S.I.D.A.I.S.I.U.M. is not a material but a field effect, not unlike the EST in concept. Cavorite is a cool idea. This original concept submitted to NASA's BPP has some similarities to what you were describiing as related to the Casimer Effect. It seems I posted a pic of DG Tau B in here somewhere where I airbrushed in the field geometry and the dust lane. I'm making a point that tends to agree with the ideas of repulsive forces being the primordial factor of relativity.

In that, yes, your 2 flashlight batteries to the moon is not impossible.

[Dave_Oblad]

Hey Temporocitor,

After checking with distributors, I find them in agreement that U.P.S.I.D.A.I.S.I.U.M. or Cavorite (whatever name you wish to bestow upon this stuff) would be very difficult to keep in stock. Predictions are that it will literally fly right off the shelves :P

About my Plumb-Bob warp drive.. I see an issue in that it can never land anywhere.. so the cabin must have an independent landing capsule. Also.. don't want to get too close to a star, the nature of a warp drive may draw you into it due to an issue of space-time balance vs. thrust. The electronic version will probably be better despite the extra power required.

Regards,
Dave :^)

[Temporocitor]

What if you isolated the warp drive from the force of gravity or even from light as well? A vehicle traveling in the 5th dimension alone would transcend the space occupied by a star without so much as a hiccup.

[Temporocitor]

http://jootbox.websitetoolbox.com/post/ ... 9?trail=45

This involves some imaginative thoughts on what's inside a star, so prior to assuming a warp drive will become hopelessly sucked into a star's timeline, this needs to be understood along with the many other possible theories of how stars and their local time-space continuum evolve and function.